– T. R. Jawahar
(A religious teacher of supreme wisdom, Dayananda Saraswati is also extremely articulate, a combination that is very rare, given the stereotype of a Hindu protagonist that often raises the hackles of the ‘intellectuals’.
His superb command over the White man’s tongue is backed by phenomenal knowledge of not only the Vedas, Vedanta, Upanishads, Gita, but also the religious texts and practices of other faiths, not to speak of modern literature. In a way he is the ideal foil for those at the other end of the ideological spectrum, viz.; Communists, atheists, JNU historians and lest I forget, ‘other miscellaneous secularists’: He is one who could be more than a match to them, word for word and in wits.)
# You have come out strongly against the Pope’s statements on the anti-forcible conversions laws. You have also been a campaigner against conversions, terming it as violence. Can you elaborate?
A.: Okay. What is violence? When you physically hurt me, it is violence. When you do anything that can instigate physical violence, that too is an act of violence. And if you hurt me emotionally, that again is violence. If you hurt me spiritually, that is the worst violence, rank violence. All these are there in conversion because it leads to physical violence. When you convert somebody, you have to criticise the person’s religion, his worship, his culture; all these hurt. Even when he changes it hurts. How will he change? He has to disown his parents, and their wisdom and their culture, his ancestors, and his entire community; you are isolating him, uprooting him and all the uprooted people are emotionally unsettled.
For instance, Blacks in America are uprooted people. Even after generations, they are not emotionally settled. It will never help the persons who are uprooted from their culture. So it is great violence against culture, tradition etc.
# Is the religious person, then, the core person?
A.: Yes, we find some people die for their religion because in their scripture it is told that if your religion is in danger then you will have to sacrifice your life so that you will also have a better place in paradise. The fellow begins to believe that, and he is ready to give up his life. This is indoctrination. So, for their religion’s sake, they have double standards. One who does not believe in their religion is anti-god, as if God has given only their religion for everyone to follow. If he does not follow that he is an enemy of God, an infidel, and deserves to be killed. Though, God anyway is going to destroy him, but if you destroy him, God will be pleased that you have proved your faith. This is the double standard. The values are not common for all. For the followers, one set of values and for the non-followers, another set of values. Killing gets a sanction. That is why these are all dangerous religions. And I say all converting religions are dangerous. They have created problems. It is like somebody wanting freedom to destroy me. If I do not give this freedom, I become a ‘fundamentalist’. But if I give them the freedom to destroy me, then I am a ‘liberal’, my religion a free religion, that’s it. Now, this very concept of freedom itself has to be questioned, examined, and told to the people.
# And to the Pope?
A.: Not only the Pope. The Pope said this because they have got away with it for 2,000 years in the name of ‘freedom of religion’. They have wiped out continents, cultures in various continents, religions in countries. Where are those religions and cultures that built those pyramids? Show me one fellow now as a sample. Greek and Roman monuments are there, but where are the religions? In Europe, they completely wiped out all the indigenous religions. In North America and South America, they have finished off all the native cultures. Even in Africa it is almost finished.
So now in Asia they are planting their religion. They want to be successful, between these two people, they want to destroy all cultures in this world. Therefore, I say, enough is enough. I don’t want to ask them to give up their (the convert’s) religions now.
But their concepts, their beliefs are not acceptable to me. I give them the freedom to follow what they follow. But I want them to leave me free to follow what I believe! They cannot say evangelising is not against other religions. It is against other religions; conversions are against other religions. We don’t believe in conversion itself. We don’t accept that, we don’t do that.
# Then how do you deal with this problem when it is so basic? What are the practical ways?
A.: The theologians have to change, but they will not because they have enough inbuilt programming. What we call indoctrination. There is no use even to make an attempt but we should keep talking about that to them. They just wait for a time when there is more freedom for them to do. So, let that time be kept away, that conducive time for them to convert be kept away. The people have to be made aware and proud of their religion that would take care of this problem in course of time. They should be able to say enough is enough.
# There is the lure of money, incentives and other benefits that the naive fall for…
A.: It is not really the money that buys. What do they do? Small things, and then they try to tempt them. That gives the thumb space, they begin to enter the heart. Then they make the most unkindly cut. When the missionary tells that the fellow’s daily pooja is wrong, that his altar of prayer is not the altar, he has to alter that. That is the unkindest cut you can get. It is a stab in the heart, where this fellow, innocently, gives some space for the missionary to enter. That very place becomes a place for attack. He attacks at the heart of the person, his religious core. Therefore, the missionaries are the most violent people in the world. They have committed violence and nobody else has committed violence as they have done. They continue to do that but people do not realise this. They do seemingly good things in order to commit this violence.
# What is the effect of missionary activity on national security?
A.: Look at the northeast. I wonder if I can go and talk there, in my own country. They ask if I am from India! This is what the missionaries have done. Those people are made to feel they are non-Indians, this is very unfortunate. It is a major problem for national integrity and not good for our tradition. In fact, Hindu religion has to be saved for the sake of humanity, because Christians don’t believe Muslims will go to heaven and Muslims don’t believe that Christians will go anywhere. They are fighting each other in trying to reach heaven or paradise. Both believe that the other is not going there, so they will fight forever. The only person who says paradise is not up there, but here, is the Hindu. The Hindu is the only one who makes sense. He has a methodology to teach, it is not just a belief. Only, they are working on belief; we are working on wisdom. There, it is only beliefs, many of which cannot be proved and several of which are wrong and foolish. See, a belief is above reason. When you say there is heaven, it is above reason. You can believe that. If you survive death then you will go to heaven, this is also a belief. But when you say that if you survive death, you will go to heaven or hell eternally, then it is difficult to believe. And another thing, they say God is formless but he needs a location – you cannot define foolishness in a better way! When you believe against all evidence, then it is called foolishness.
# The inequalities that have cropped up in our society are used as a handle against Hinduism?
A.: Even they have their own inequalities. They have their own problems that are endless but that is not a sanction for us to have problems. We should try and solve them, but still, all these are our problems. Suppose, when two brothers are fighting over a property, a third fellow comes and says, since you two are fighting let me occupy the property – that cannot be allowed. You remain an encroacher. You can help us, but you cannot become a beneficiary of our fight. Therefore, we should resolve our own fights. You have no business interfering in our house and I would not intrude in yours.
Indian Christians and Indian Muslims are converted from Hinduism, without themselves knowing what they are getting into. But once converted they are told that their brethren and forefathers are devil worshippers! This is what I say is dangerous. As Indians they have a right to know their religions, their people and their culture and their forms. If they know, there will be no problems but they are purposely kept away. The clergy is responsible for that, Islamic and Christian clergy are responsible for that.
# But Christianity lays much store by charity works …?
A.: It is because these missionaries are using some of these perverted methods for conversion work. And you also think that, this is the role of religion? The role of religion is to make you human, that’s all.
They should do humanitarian work, like the way we do. We have charities all over the world. Look at Salem or Coimbatore, how many hospitals are there? Almost all of them are run by Hindu charities. And what do they do? They don’t convert; they just run the charities. There is no priest or nun there for there is no conversion programme and therefore the charities remain charities.
But to run charities for some other purpose is the most uncharitable thing to do. Have you seen how those who supply cows to slaughterhouses treat those cows, a week before the slaughter? They don’t allow the cows to move around, in a bid to increase their weight. It is called ‘pounding’. In that period, they feed them a lot. When you look at it this way: love and feeding, you’ll feel, ah, how humanitarian these people are, so human… but those fellows have an eye on something else. This is how I see all the missionaries’ work – love of the slaughterhouse people. They slaughter religions, slaughter traditions, slaughter cultures. Yes, they do humanitarian work, but slaughterhouse love it is.
If you really love people just give it, forget about it, and don’t talk about your religion, keep your sacred religion in your heart. Therefore, I find it is not a happy thing to talk about. The vulgarity of it, even to talk about it is rather staining my tongue and leaves a distaste. The government of India has to appoint a Commission immediately, I repeat, and submit a report. This is what we have omitted and this is to be done.
# But if they want to know or even reconvert, will the Hindu ‘clergy’ allow that…
A.: In India, there is no clergy. Here all are Hindus until they call themselves differently, because when I allow every form of worship, then where is the problem? We deem you another Hindu, it is only you who are saying I am this and that. There is no reconversion. There is a prodigality and they come back, like a prodigal son. We do not even need to baptise. We have to ask him to give up beef, that is all.
# The US government appears to have a different view on the religious freedom here…?
A.: The US government had appointed a Commission on International Religious Freedom. This Commission is an authentic body, funded by the government. The Commission gets information from all countries, and then submits a periodical report to the government, which is recognised seriously. Based on its report, the government of US applies pressure on those countries, where, according to the Commission, there is lack of religious freedom. You’ll be surprised, India is among the Countries of Particular Concern (CPC), according to the new report. They cite the anti-conversion Bill of Tamilnadu and Gujarat, and some Gujarat incidents as the basis for this. They say there is no religious freedom. This is according to their own matrix of norms, on the basis of which they decide ‘religious freedom’. I question this matrix of theirs.
# What’s your logic?
A.: What is it that you call ‘religious freedom’? Is it freedom to evangelise and convert with impunity? Is it not religious freedom if somebody says you should not make such conversions because it restricts his freedom, as he cannot practise openly his religion? If a religious group is persecuted by legislation, as well as by society, then you say there is lack of religious freedom. What is it that constitutes religious freedom? We have to give guidelines. But they have their own guidelines.
So if they can evangelise for conversions, then there is religious freedom. That means, if they are free enough to destroy me, and if I don’t question that, then there is religious freedom. If I question their missionary activities, which are directed towards an indigenous religious tradition, and aggressively at that, or if the religious tradition stands up to that aggression, then it is questioned as infringement upon their human rights and religious freedom. Therefore, I am appealing to the Government of India to appoint a Commission on religious freedom. And give the people on the Commission, certain guidelines, on the basis of which we decide where there is religious freedom and where there is not.
So, we ourselves can decide and give them a report. I want the government of India to appoint a Commission, constituting people of different religions, but working dispassionately. Let them submit a periodical report, which may be made available to the United States and all other governments, through the embassies. And I think they should do this otherwise what right have they got to say that in this country there is no religious freedom?
# But even the minorities in India often complain about lack of religious freedom?
A.: We should find out the amenities and privileges of the minorities in this country, nowhere in the world minorities enjoy such privileges. For instance, if I want to start a teacher training or nurse training college at Tiruchi, I cannot, but a Christian can. All the teacher-training colleges are conducted by them. The Bishop openly says that if you become a Christian, I will give you admission, since it is meant for Christians. That is minorities’ privilege. Amazing!
We are fighting with the government so that the privileges given to the minorities are given to the majority also. This is reverse discrimination against the Hindus, because of the sin of being in majority. All our endowments are under government scrutiny and when there is property, they come into the picture too. And in teachers’ appointment and admission, the government interferes again. In management schools also, certain quota is to be given to some sections as per government guidelines. The government decides everything. But in minority schools, teachers’ appointments are done by the management alone, the government does not have any say. But again, they are also government-aided schools. Minority-run, government-aided schools. The teachers are paid by the government, but are appointed by the management. The nuns, fathers and priests are all paid. The nuns are wedded to poverty and the money they receive is given to the church for conversion work, as a donation. So, it becomes a money-spinner. The Government, in other words, is paying for the conversion work. And they say in this country, there are no privileges! It is just the opposite.
# You mean the majority is discriminated?
A.: There is a Minorities Commission already. And some fellows are travelling by planes all the time. The fellow says: I am the President of the Minorities Commission etc. He goes from one place to another, and this is also funded by the government. The clergy is given money; the madrassas are given money. Why can’t we give money, at least, to those who go on Kailash Yatra? Why don’t they give something for us also? But if they find some money, then they will sit there like vultures. So, all the money is in the hands of the government, they decide what they want to do. Temple money is in the hands of the government. They use it for whatever they want to use for, what they call ‘constituency development’. You know what is constituency development – MLAs and MPs development! Hindus are fighting for equal rights. Whatever the minorities have, yes, we want those rights. That is all we want.
# But for that to happen we may have to become real minorities…?
A: If I am in the majority, I cannot open my mouth for anything, even for dental surgery! But if you are a minority, you can do anything here. Already, all the fellows are dancing to their tunes. Even those who have got nothing to do with religion, Communists, for instance, are dancing to their tunes, because they have got some votes. If the minorities become 30 to 40 per cent, that will be enough! It is the majority that suffers and therefore, I say, we have reverse discrimination in this country. It is blasphemy to say that there is no religious freedom in India.
The only place where there is religious freedom in this world is India. They can convert with impunity and they can talk about it. The Bishops can go and complain about this to the Pope and they can go to the Commissioner also and complain about it. They are keeping the entire media under their control. They can write against us, but we cannot even publish our articles. You know writers are complaining that most of them who are writing (on these issues) are not getting columns any more. They are not writing nowadays, you can’t see their articles appearing anywhere because they are all blacklisted. Occasionally, I write, and if I am a regular writer I would be blacklisted also. Once in six months or so, I write, especially when there is an issue. I wrote recently because the American Commission listing India, as among the countries of CPC, is a serious allegation. The State should take this seriously and the Indian people should take this seriously. We don’t take this seriously, that is why these people go about complaining.
# But that is their right… .
A.: Bishops are complaining. Why should they complain to the Pope? Then, after they complain, they release this complaint – the Papal approval of the complaint. And then, the Papal message is released to the public. They say that the press released it. Then, when there is protest against this, they say that the Pope had talked privately to the Bishops. Then how did it come to the press? They thought they would get away with it and therefore released it to the press. They never thought they would get an attack from the Chief Minister of the Tamilnadu State, she is the Head of the State. If at all the Pope has got anything to say, he should send an official note to the Government of India. He had no business to tell all this to these Bishops. They are Indian citizens, and when Bishops go and talk to the Head of another State, then that is religious freedom. They go outside and paint our country in black colours. And they say they don’t have freedom when they are actually allowed to talk.
You know what, the government of India should take this very seriously. They have not taken it seriously and I have appealed directly to them.
In the presence of the Prime Minister I made an appeal. The Finance Minister was there and Murali Manohar Joshi was there. I wrote a letter to the Home Minister, I went to Minister of State for Home Affairs and talked to him also. This is what I am afraid – nobody understands.
# May be because they don’t want to displease America?
A.: Keeping quiet will only lead to America being more displeased. We should tell them about the privileges that the minorities enjoy here and convince them. Why should we not list them? I would like you, as a press person, to get a list of all privileges of the minorities. I would like to have that. You please write, list them in your paper. I would like to see them listed in a paper – all the privileges both minorities and the majority have in India. Let us thrash this all over and send it to all countries, we will send it to the Commissions and you send it to the Commission also. If you give me, I’ll send it to the American Commission. The government of India is toothless, I wonder whether it has got any vertebrae. Now, it is a ‘slithering beauty’, but it has to stand up.
[Swami Dayananda Saraswati shared his candid views on the raging conversion debate with Shri T. R. Jawahar, Editor, News Today, an evening daily published from Chennai. Some excerpts are published here. For the full text of the interview, log on to: http://www.newstodaynet.com/swami.htm]
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